Curse

majoho · Jul 20, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rok

Anet already stated they don't care about previous chapters,

Please link me to where Anet states that.

KurtBatz · Jul 20, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Here's my two cents.

Couldn't give a flying rats behind if there's no new ritualist or assassin weapons and armor in chapter 3. The stats won't change significantly, it'll only be changes of skin types - no point at all.

However, adding new capture skills is EASY! They don't need new graphics or any real effort, can just use the existing sort of graphics - shadow stepping, spirits (that all look the same anyway!) etc.

It would be EXCEPTIONALLY lazy of Arena to not add new skills when the graphics are already there - all they need to do is alter the effects of the new skills. I will be completely bowled over if they don't add new Sin and Rit skills to either chapter two or chapter three to compete with the core classes. It's only a matter of play balancing, drawing in a new skill bar graphic and altering the affects of existing skills.

Armour - would take an age to draw in all the new costume types for each and every new class. Weapons - same, all those new skins. Skills? Can't see why it would take a gigantic amount of programing time and it'd keep everyone happy.

Klenn · Jul 20, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

OK I'm not going to read this whole thread (already read the first ~50 posts tho) but anyway here is what I think:

Personally, I would love to see new skills for ALL existing classes. But for Ch3, I doubt it will happen for the following reasons:
1. As someone stated earlier, people are still learning the potential and possibilities of the A and Rt classes with the skills they already have
2. I remember a while back when Ch2 was coming out (or soon after release?) reading that the 6 Core classes are meant to be more versatile, while the new ones (i.e. A and Rt) are meant to be more specialized

With the existing chapters, so far we have only seen Core + 1 pair of new. So when the core classes got new skills, it was all classes, but the core classes was all classes in chapter 1. So until Ch3 is released, we don't know what happens to the new ones.

But remember that they won't have new classes for every upcoming chapter. So who knows, maybe the first chapter that has 0 new classes, will have new skills for ALL existing classes at that time. That would be cool IMO.

However, like I said in the beginning of this post, I would like to see more skills for all classes, and personally what I think would be the best thing to do (IMO) would be to add just SOME new skills for A and Rt like someone previously suggested. Maybe for each attribute add 1 new elite + couple randoms spells. Would give PvE A's and Rt's reason to play in the new continent. If they have nothing new to offer (in terms of skills and/or gear) in the new continent for A's and Rt's then I don't think we will see them much in the future outside PvP. Maybe if they added some skills for A and Rt FOR Ch2 as an update it would suffice and people would be happy about that, but then I still wonder why would I bring my Assassin to Ch3 continent? Then again, why would I bring it to Tyria? There's no A/Rt skills or armor over there either...

Hmm... *ponders the situation*
I just hope none of the classes or continents end up dead in the future... if they somehow manage to prevent that from happening in the long run (with or without new skills), I will be very impressed and happy.

Well, whatever the case may be, Ch3 isn't out yet, so nobody knows for sure what will happen. Someone in this thread said ANet should make a FAQ. I agree and would really like to see some of these questions answered. But until then, we can only guess, so plz try to refrain from freaking out, people. We haven't even seen the preview yet...

samifly · Jul 20, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I can really see a time where some older skills get removed/prevented from the PvP meta-game cause it would be too much work to keep in. I bet some old prophecies skills might get the boot eventually.

The Hand Of Death · Jul 20, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solar Light

When anet added in factions, they added to core skills and added in the new profesisons, which in the end, all the professions had a equal number of skills.

No, all the professions don't have the same number of skills, if you have the Prophecies skills. A necromancer with all skills from prophecies and factions has 107 skills, now an assasin only has 75. That is not equal.

I think Anet is not going to support chapter specific professions in future chapters, but I wouldn't doubt that they will keep adding content to the older games(totem axe, rotwings bow in prophecies).

The core classes will probably get about 30 new skills in every chapter. Now the skills that a new core character can get if they only have that chapter is going to be equal to the other chapter professions, but not if they brought them from prophecies through factions and now into nightfall.

Khift · Jul 21, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

My take on this; Remember when they told us that there would be expansions that did not include new professions. Now think about that.

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again many more times:

STOP SPREADING DISINFORMATION.

There WILL be new classes with every expansion.

Don't believe me? Listen to Jeff Strain's interview with Gaming Steve. In this interview Jeff Strain forcibly recants another ANet employee's claim that not all expansions will have new classes. Jeff assures Steve that every expansion will have new classes because that is their primary mechanism for introducing new play styles to the game.

DO THE RIGHT THING: STOP SPREADING DISINFORMATION.

Now, granted, ANet could easily turn back on this claim. But until they do, this is their official stance on the matter. (And getting ANet's official stance on anything is a pretty rare thing, so savor it.)

About the topic on hand:

Ritualists and Assassins have a snowball's chance in hell of getting new skills with Nightfall. They might get new armor. (It is yet to be seen if armor sets work with the same core/expansion philosophy. Thus far nothing points towards it which leads me to believe every class with get new armor with every expansion that includes new armor.) But they sure won't get new skills.

Let me elaborate.

Exhibit #1: Assassins and Ritualists are unique to Cantha
Multiple times throughout the Factions PvE storyline Assassins and Ritualists are referred to as unique to Cantha or as heroes of Cantha. Unique to Cantha: Not on any other continent.

Exhibit #2: Assassins and Ritualists have a different skill distribution
Upon the release of Factions the 6 core professions had their skills separated into three groups -- Core Skills, Prophecies Skills and Factions Skills. Thus it is presumed that with Nightfall there will be a category of Nightfall Skills. This was to allow these professions to grow in a sane manner. If it weren't for this system ANet would have had to place 180 bosses with different elites instead of the 115 they did under this system. In Nightfall there would have to be 225 bosses with different elites just for the Core professions if not for this system. Thus, this system is designed to allow these professions to grow. Ritualists and Assassins do not have this system implemented. They do not have 50 Core skills and 25 Factions skills, as it would be if they were intended to grow. Instead they just have 75 Factions skills. Thus, they are not expected to grow.

Exhibit #3: Character birthplaces
You cannot create an Assassin or Ritualist in Tyria, only in Cantha. This is because Assassins and Ritualists are unique to Cantha.

Exhibit #4: The nature of Core professions and the nature of Expansion professions
The 6 Core professions are designed as over-arching archetypes. They cover broad, wide swaths of flavor and can be reinterpreted within any culture. The Assassin and the Ritualist, however, draw from narrow and deep flavor. They are tied to the flavor of Cantha. Their names are evocative, as opposed to vague. Dervishes and Paragons already exhibit some of these features as well -- a narrow and deep flavor is with them and they seem tailor made for their environment. The Expansion professions are inherently tied to their home continent.

Exhibit #5: Mathematical Elegance
If ANet was to support each and every profession with each and every chapter they would have two options: First, they can continue the precedent of creating each profession with 75 skills and adding 25 new skills with each chapter. Or, second, they could create each new profession with as many skills as the Core professions have and bump Assasins and Ritualists up to match. If ANet takes the first path, by Chapter 5 the Core professions will have 175 skills, the Factions professions will have 150 skills, the Nightfall professions will have 125 skills, the Chapter 4 professions with 100 skills and the Chapter 5 professions with 75 skills. This is not elegant in any way shape or form. If ANet takes the second path by Chapter 5 they will be facing the challenge of creating two new classes with 175 brand new skills and certainly they will fail. Creating and balancing 75 brand new skills for a new class is difficult enough. Attempting to do the same with 175 skills will run the developers dry of creativity, enlengthen testing periods and will kill the development schedule. Additionally, if ANet makes the stance of supporting each new class with each expansion pack they will be facing a growing amount of skills they need to create with each chapter. Factions introduced 300 new skills into the game. (Duplicates not included in that count.) If Nightfall treats Assassins and Ritualists with the same 25 new skills that the Core professions will be getting then Nightfall will bring 350 new skills. Chapter 5 will then introduce 450 new skills to the game, 50% more than Factions did. Creating that many skills will, once again, dry out creativity and enlengthen the process of creating each expansion. And, with method #2 listed above Chapter 5 would introduce a whopping 700 new skills to the pool. However, if ANet chooses not to support the Expansion professions with each new chapter then not only does ANet create mathematical elegance they also introduce a hard cap to the amount of skills they need to add with each chapter -- 300.

It's all extrapolation. But it's sensible. It's why they won't do it, mark my words.

LifeInfusion · Jul 21, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBatz

I will be completely bowled over if they don't add new Sin and Rit skills to either chapter two or chapter three to compete with the core classes. It's only a matter of play balancing, drawing in a new skill bar graphic and altering the affects of existing skills.

You are so wrong mister. You realize each skill is tested before release? and that each one has an artist to draw the icon?

Thom · Jul 21, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Anet has a certain philosophy or formula for fun. It isn't perfect, but it largely gets the job done:
1) Hardcore PvPers want a sensible number of skills sothat they can be as close to being fully unlocked as possible in a very short time. If you put out too many skills, you're going to sufficate this crowd. Exponential growth of new skills will sufficate many of the hardcore PvPers (with lives).

2) PvEers will get expansion for core classes and an opportunity to "start over" with a new class. Some people like this some won't. New professions come in pairs: active and support, which gives different player types something that will naturally draw them. If you fall in love with an expansion profession, your can still play them but with fewer rewards. This isn't perfect, but makes production managable.

3)New players can start new classes along with everyone else. Everyone is a noob in the new classes at release, so this eases the learning curve especially for PvP.

4)Fewer weapons to drop in a particular zone makes hunting for specifics easier. If 10 classes worth of weapons were dropping instead of 8, it would really make getting the "right weapon" difficult. More enemies of the expansion profession type, biased drops toward the new types. I see this as a good thing.

5)Balance is difficult enough with 300 new skills. Fewer skills means fewer nerfs.

Other notes:
-Some skills are going to be lame. Odds are that they weren't meant for you. Not all skills are designed for everyone.
-Assassins and Ritualists need some rebalance. While they shouldn't be made elite, there should be more potential variety in their builds.
-I love my ritualist and expect him to have a long life PvPing. I really couldn't fathom bringing more than 3 characters through any espansion (1 new and my 2 core).

generik · Jul 21, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

Why? Because of their business model, they want people to buy the new chapters. They don't want to offer reasons to stick with the old.

If that's truly their business model I really don't see why diminishing the value added by each chapter is going to boost sales.

The funny bit is I originally did asked myself this very same question when Factions was released, "Will future expansions bring more options to the new classes too?". Back then I still thought Anet was a decent publisher and figured that even though I am taking a 2 character slot penalty for merging, but under such a scheme, I'd actually have *added* value because what I get out of each subsequent chapter also indirectly depends on what I've put into the whole franchise.

Today I realised the truth, geez, what's new. Another weasel out easy solution from Anet. I should have thought so myself.

Never again, lots of better places to burn my cash. Oh, and spare me your "Don't let the door hit you when you leave" replies, it only reflects on how pathetic and sucked in you truly are.

Siberian · Jul 21, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Nightfall doesn't need to have content for Canthan exclusive characters.

Even if they never get another skill they'll have enough to be viable classes in any chapter. FFS you can only take 8 skills on your bar at a time and no matter how many skills the core classes have that are unique (even those that are now 'factions' exclusive core skills are just duplicates of chp 1 skills w/ new names) you will still be able to create unique and completely viable hybrids of cross-chapter exclusive characters. Which should be benefit enough.

Think about it, a right now in Chapter 2 anyone who did or didn't buy chapter 1 can create a W/A or a M/Rt or any Core class + Canthan class character.

But, in Nightfall, only those people who have factions will be able to create a Rt/D or a D/A etc. That's something that will be exclusive to owners of both chapters and I think worth enough on it's own.

tear · Jul 21, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamecube187

Hmmmmm. Isn't there currently six core proffesions? Warrior, ranger, elementalist, necro, mesmer, and (the one u left out) monk. Yup u forgot the healer.

And I agree with you. Prophecies also should have had some classes as "exclusive classes". It only make sence. All chapters would have warrior, ranger, monk, and elementalists, and then the two, more odd classes, necro and mesmer, would be exclusive. Oh well, too late for that now....

Oh, whoops! Make them core too.

Andisa Kalorn · Jul 21, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

No more content for my poor rit? This sure makes me happy I didn't spend the effort to get her fow armor... I'd only spend that much on a character if I'm going to play it in the future a lot, and since rits are doomed to be obsolete (and I don't pvp much) this won't be the case for my rit.

If I make a paragon or dervish, I'll probably spend a lot less on them, since they too will be doomed to be obsolete within a few months...

From a roleplaying perspective, I'm not very happy with Anet's plans here. I actually grow attached to my characters, and imagining that they have such a short time to develop really ruins those characters for me.

And yes, this is all speculation, I will wait and see (but won't hold out much hope).

Klenn · Jul 23, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Personally, although I do RPG a lot in GW, the thing that keeps me always playing is the PvP system and I like bringing PvE chars (once they have max armor and 200 attribute points) into RA/TA/HA/GvG, and to be honest even if the ONLY new skills are for the new classes (not even the core ones, although core will probably get new ones too (i don't have confirmation of this so don't take it as fact, although they did add new skills for core chars in chapter 2)) i would still get Nightfall because i'd still have enough skills to buy/cap on my PvE chars, there's already so many skills in GW...

P.S. sorry if i said before in this thread that they won't have new classes every chapter if it's not true, I was pretty sure i heard them say that but someone posted a link to an interview saying otherwise, I didn't listen to the whole thing though cuz it was 74 min long interview and i'm gonna go play now so i still don't know if it's true or not but meh in any case...

Kool Kirby · Jul 23, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Wait, so I can't create dervishes and paragons on cantha, and they won't be updated?

I do not own any guild wars. But if this is true, if they will abandon their things like most people in this topic are saying, then maybe I should reconsider spending my money in this game.

BenO_Under · Jul 23, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Butanananowski

they should probably make the skillbar have 10 slots in ch4 :/ or maybe they already have in ch3.

one can never know. :P

Highly dout it unless they also add 2 more skill slots in prophicies/factions, if they didn't, it would kill the balence

Rikimaru · Jul 23, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Kirby

Wait, so I can't create dervishes and paragons on cantha, and they won't be updated?

I do not own any guild wars. But if this is true, if they will abandon their things like most people in this topic are saying, then maybe I should reconsider spending my money in this game.

Run while you can.
There are much better games out there.

Markaedw · Jul 23, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

The question is not whether you can create Paragons on Catha, you can't just as you cant create Rit on Tyria, the question is will you be able to create Rit, and will there be skills for them in Nightfall.